Diskussion:Freedom Not Fear 2008/Call for action - Versionsgeschichte

Roam: Schützte „Diskussion:Freedom Not Fear 2008/Call for action“: Bearbeitungssperre für nicht angemeldete Benutzer wegen Spam [edit=autoconfirmed:move=sysop]

2010-03-25T15:19:34Z

Schützte „Diskussion:Freedom Not Fear 2008/Call for action“: Bearbeitungssperre für nicht angemeldete Benutzer wegen Spam [edit=autoconfirmed:move=sysop]

Roam: Änderungen von Wir speichern nicht! (Beiträge) rückgängig gemacht und letzte Version von Muzungu wiederhergestellt

2010-03-25T15:14:15Z

Änderungen von Wir speichern nicht! (Beiträge) rückgängig gemacht und letzte Version von Muzungu wiederhergestellt

Wir speichern nicht!: OxMkPLhCMe

2010-03-25T12:37:48Z

OxMkPLhCMe

Wir speichern nicht!: IweWOnVEh

2010-03-24T08:03:29Z

IweWOnVEh

Wir speichern nicht!: abJAXqsObKQc

2010-03-23T17:57:40Z

abJAXqsObKQc

Wir speichern nicht!: pGFXvSjqmFkQQDmpCvX

2010-03-23T00:17:34Z

pGFXvSjqmFkQQDmpCvX

Wir speichern nicht!: rrNlDVuTOGEVBvOsvZK

2010-03-21T23:47:44Z

rrNlDVuTOGEVBvOsvZK

Wir speichern nicht!: txUMSxlpBbUjiNCoH

2010-03-21T15:19:17Z

txUMSxlpBbUjiNCoH

Wir speichern nicht!: /* PROSA's comments */

2009-12-27T10:46:09Z

PROSA's comments

Muzungu: Änderung 98390 von Wir speichern nicht! (Diskussion) wurde rückgängig gemacht.

2009-12-27T08:48:50Z

Änderung 98390 von Wir speichern nicht! (Diskussion) wurde rückgängig gemacht.

← Nächstältere Version		Version vom 25. März 2010, 15:14 Uhr
Zeile 1:		Zeile 1:
−	~~doors~~.~~txt~~;3;5	+	= PROSA's comments =
		+
		+	Dear Friends,
		+
		+	First of all thanks for the great initiative. We are really looking forward to participate and create a great party in Copenhagen. Here are our suggestions to the main text. We hope you will take them into account.
		+
		+	== Political issues ==
		+
		+	We have issues with two items in particular. These are important points to us.
		+
		+	=== Focus on street activities ===
		+
		+	Our activity does not really fit into this category. While we recognize and respect the large crowds this day of action has drawn in Berlin and other large cities, taking to the streets in large numbers may not be realistic in all countries.
		+
		+	We propose changing the heading, and the first and last paragraphs, so the day of action fits with a broader range of creative and peaceful means of protest.
		+
		+	==== Heading ====
		+
		+	The heading reads:
		+
		+	:Protest marches "Freedom not fear - Stop the surveillance mania!" all over Europe on 11 October 2008
		+
		+	We suggest replacing this with:
		+
		+	:Day of action "Freedom not fear - Stop the surveillance mania!" all over Europe on 11 October 2008:
		+
		+	:: Looks good, I suppose. --[[Benutzer:Ricardo.cristof\|Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes]] 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
		+	:: Pro - Ich find den Vorschlag sehr gut --[[Benutzer:Oliver\|Oliver]] 8:09, 15. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
		+
		+	==== First paragraph ====
		+
		+	The first paragraph is currently:
		+
		+	:A broad movement of human rights campaigners and other organizations are calling on everybody to join in street protests against excessive surveillance by businesses and governments. On 11 October 2008, concerned humans all over Europe will take to the streets, the motto being "Freedom not fear 2008". Peaceful and creative street action will take place in many European capital cities.
		+
		+	We suggest it be changed to:
		+
		+	:A broad movement of campaigners and organizations are calling on everybody to join in peaceful and creative street action against excessive surveillance by businesses and governments. On 11 October 2008, concerned citizens will protest against this trend, the motto being "Freedom not fear 2008". This will take place across the continent on many European capital cities.
		+
		+	:: Looks good, I suppose. --[[Benutzer:Ricardo.cristof\|Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes]] 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
		+	:: Pro Ich find´s gut --[[Benutzer:Oliver\|Oliver]] 8:12, 15. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
		+
		+	==== Last paragraph ====
		+
		+	The last paragraph is currently:
		+
		+	:In order to protest against security mania and excessive surveillance we will take to the streets in capital cities all over Europe on 11 October 2008. We call on everybody to join our peaceful protest. Politicians are to see that we are willing to take to the streets for the protection of our liberties. You can find the latest information on the protest marches and the list of participating cities at our website: http://wiki.vorratsdatenspeicherung.de/Freedom_Not_Fear_2008.
		+
		+	We suggest replacing the paragraph with the following:
		+
		+	:In order to protest against security mania and excessive surveillance we are calling on everybody to join the variety of peaceful protest. We will show that we are willing to take action for the protection of our liberties. You can find the latest information on the protest marches and activities and the list of participating cities at our website: http://wiki.vorratsdatenspeicherung.de/Freedom_Not_Fear_2008.
		+
		+	:: Looks good, I suppose. --[[Benutzer:Ricardo.cristof\|Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes]] 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
		+	:: Ich finds ok, kann damit leben. Frage ist, inwieweit wir hier die Politiker nicht mehr aufführen - aber ich kann damit leben. --[[Benutzer:Oliver\|Oliver]] 8:15, 15. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
		+
		+	=== "Fortress Europe" ===
		+
		+	We are a little concerned with the use of this term. It seems to be on the fringe of the "Freedom not fear" initiative, and it is a classical left-wing idiom. PROSA is neutral with regards to party politics. Therefore we are wary of using such terms.
		+
		+	:: Well, it's modular. Just don't use this. But anyway, the church organizations and official development aid organizations in europe use this term. Also, Spiegel, a major german weekly: http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,564674,00.html And there are a lot of well-known and respected scientists agreeing with this term: http://www.fecl.org/about_cl.htm --[[Benutzer:Ricardo.cristof\|Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes]] 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
		+
		+	:: Was Cristof schreibt ist ok, andererseits: "Festung" gibt die Vorstellung ein Inneres schotte sich gegen ein Äusseres ab. Das ist doch eigentlich gar nicht unser Problem. (oder hab ich da grad einen Denkfehler) Will sagen: ich hänge nicht an dem Begriff Festung Europa. --[[Benutzer:Oliver\|Oliver]] 8:17, 15. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
		+
		+	::: Zum Thema "Festung Europa" und der Bezug zu Datenschutz einige Links: [http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europ%C3%A4ische_Agentur_f%C3%BCr_die_operative_Zusammenarbeit_an_den_Au%C3%9Fengrenzen], [http://www.imi-online.de/2008.php3?id=1680], [http://www.datenschutz.de/suchen/datenschutzzentrum/?sh_query=y&num_of_results=11&search=eurodac&r8=y&imageField.x=0&imageField.y=0]. Aber wie gesagt, dieser Begriff wird zwar auch, aber nicht ausschließlich von Linken benutzt, ganz sicher aber von Kirchen- und Entwicklungshilfeorganisationen. Fortress Europe _ist_ unser Problem, denn Vorratsdatenspeicherung, Biometriedatenbanken (EuroDac, SIS II, VIS, s.a. Vertrag von Prüm) etc. sind in eine Strategie eingebettet. Und das ist die "Festung Europa". Und damit ist das unser Problem: es geht um Massen-Datenspeicherung, um anlaßlose Überwachung. --[[Benutzer:Ricardo.cristof\|Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes]] 10:40, 15. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
		+	::://English translation (sorry, late): Regarding the topic "Fortress Europe" and the relation to privacy and data protection some links: [sorry, german - maybe someone can find english links?]. But as mentioned, this term is also, but not exclusively used by left-wingers; indeed Churches and development aid organizations use it, too. "Fortress Europe" _is_ our problem/issue, because data retention, biometric databases (EuroDAC, SIS II, VIS, see also Prum Treaty) etc. are parts of a stretegy. And that is "Fortress Europe". And thus, this is our issue: it is about mass- data storage, groundless surveillance. --[[Benutzer:Ricardo.cristof\|Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes]] 13:30, 15. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
		+
		+	== Other comments ==
		+
		+	In addition, we have other minor comments to the text.
		+
		+	=== Section on data interchange in international flights ===
		+
		+	We see the problem, and are concerned about the privacy issues. But this item is a symptom of a deeper problem, not the essence of the problem itself. Compared to the scope and principles at stake, this topic seems very detailed.
		+
		+	We suggest cutting some of these paragraphs to get a more concise political statement.
		+
		+	:: Well, this is not a press-realease, but a call for action. I suggest, writing shorter press-realeases about this call - including your national (and diverging) version of the call, of course. --[[Benutzer:Ricardo.cristof\|Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes]] 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
		+
		+	=== Internet censorship ===
		+
		+	We suggest replacing the line:
		+	* abolish plans for live-surveillance and filtering of internet communication
		+
		+	With:
		+	* No internet censorship
		+
		+	::someone already did ;-) --[[Benutzer:Ricardo.cristof\|Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes]] 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
		+
		+	=== Air travellers and exchange of information ===
		+
		+	Consider merging the demands on less restriction in air travel to one bullet point.
		+
		+	* no information exchange with the US and other states lacking effective data protection
		+
		+	This item should be cut, or at least the concrete reference to the US can be removed.
		+
		+	::yes, this is a german topic: the german gouvernment has signed an agreement shipping information about suspected criminals to the US, including sexual behaviour, trader unions' membership, religion etc. Really embarrassing. --[[Benutzer:Ricardo.cristof\|Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes]] 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
		+
		+	=== Our demands (alternate version) ===
		+
		+	If we had to write the demands from scratch, we would write something along these lines:
		+
		+	''' 1. Protect our privacy '''
		+	* Stop blanket logging of our telecommunication
		+	* Abolish camera surveillance
		+	* No online-searches of private computer systems (government sponsored hacking)
		+	* Review existing surveillance powers as to their effectiveness and harmful side-effects
		+
		+	''' 2. No internet censorship '''
		+	* Freedom of speech means we are responsible for what we say, censorship means we are restricted from saying certain things
		+	* Democracy requires informed and independent citizens, therefore it depends on the citizens right to seek information where they choose
		+
		+	''' 3. No more infringements on our civil liberties '''
		+	* Prevent leaks of confidential information of a personal nature
		+	* No rutine exchange of personal information to airport personal/travel agencies
		+	* Communication between citizens and states should be based on mutual trust not suspicion
		+
		+	--[[Benutzer:CamillaG\|CamillaG]] 17:49, 13. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
		+
		+	:: I like this rewritten demands! --[[Benutzer:Ricardo.cristof\|Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes]] 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
		+	:: Pro [[Benutzer:Oliver\|Oliver]] 8:28, 15. Jul. 2008 (CEST)

← Nächstältere Version		Version vom 25. März 2010, 12:37 Uhr
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−	doors.txt;3;10	+	doors.txt;3;5

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← Nächstältere Version	Version vom 25. März 2010, 15:19 Uhr
(kein Unterschied)

← Nächstältere Version		Version vom 21. März 2010, 23:47 Uhr
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← Nächstältere Version		Version vom 21. März 2010, 15:19 Uhr
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−	~~comment2,~~	+	doors.txt;3;10

← Nächstältere Version		Version vom 27. Dezember 2009, 10:46 Uhr
Zeile 1:		Zeile 1:
−	~~= PROSA's comments =~~	+	comment2,
−
−	~~Dear Friends~~,
−
−	First of all thanks for the great initiative. We are really looking forward to participate and create a great party in Copenhagen. Here are our suggestions to the main text. We hope you will take them into account.
−
−	~~== Political issues ==~~
−
−	~~We have issues with two items in particular. These are important points to us.~~
−
−	~~=== Focus on street activities ===~~
−
−	Our activity does not really fit into this category. While we recognize and respect the large crowds this day of action has drawn in Berlin and other large cities, taking to the streets in large numbers may not be realistic in all countries.
−
−	~~We propose changing the heading, and the first and last paragraphs, so the day of action fits with a broader range of creative and peaceful means of protest.~~
−
−	~~==== Heading ====~~
−
−	~~The heading reads:~~
−
−	~~:Protest marches "Freedom not fear - Stop the surveillance mania!" all over Europe on 11 October 2008~~
−
−	~~We suggest replacing this with:~~
−
−	~~:Day of action "Freedom not fear - Stop the surveillance mania!" all over Europe on 11 October 2008:~~
−
−	~~:: Looks good, I suppose. --[[Benutzer:Ricardo.cristof\|Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes]] 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)~~
−	~~:: Pro - Ich find den Vorschlag sehr gut --[[Benutzer:Oliver\|Oliver]] 8:09, 15. Jul. 2008 (CEST)~~
−
−	~~==== First paragraph ====~~
−
−	~~The first paragraph is currently:~~
−
−	:A broad movement of human rights campaigners and other organizations are calling on everybody to join in street protests against excessive surveillance by businesses and governments. On 11 October 2008, concerned humans all over Europe will take to the streets, the motto being "Freedom not fear 2008". Peaceful and creative street action will take place in many European capital cities.
−
−	~~We suggest it be changed to:~~
−
−	:A broad movement of campaigners and organizations are calling on everybody to join in peaceful and creative street action against excessive surveillance by businesses and governments. On 11 October 2008, concerned citizens will protest against this trend, the motto being "Freedom not fear 2008". This will take place across the continent on many European capital cities.
−
−	~~:: Looks good, I suppose. --[[Benutzer:Ricardo.cristof\|Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes]] 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)~~
−	~~:: Pro Ich find´s gut --[[Benutzer:Oliver\|Oliver]] 8:12, 15. Jul. 2008 (CEST)~~
−
−	~~==== Last paragraph ====~~
−
−	~~The last paragraph is currently:~~
−
−	:In order to protest against security mania and excessive surveillance we will take to the streets in capital cities all over Europe on 11 October 2008. We call on everybody to join our peaceful protest. Politicians are to see that we are willing to take to the streets for the protection of our liberties. You can find the latest information on the protest marches and the list of participating cities at our website: http://wiki.vorratsdatenspeicherung.de/Freedom_Not_Fear_2008.
−
−	~~We suggest replacing the paragraph with the following:~~
−
−	:In order to protest against security mania and excessive surveillance we are calling on everybody to join the variety of peaceful protest. We will show that we are willing to take action for the protection of our liberties. You can find the latest information on the protest marches and activities and the list of participating cities at our website: http://wiki.vorratsdatenspeicherung.de/Freedom_Not_Fear_2008.
−
−	~~:: Looks good, I suppose. --[[Benutzer:Ricardo.cristof\|Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes]] 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)~~
−	~~:: Ich finds ok, kann damit leben. Frage ist, inwieweit wir hier die Politiker nicht mehr aufführen - aber ich kann damit leben. --[[Benutzer:Oliver\|Oliver]] 8:15, 15. Jul. 2008 (CEST)~~
−
−	~~=== "Fortress Europe" ===~~
−
−	We are a little concerned with the use of this term. It seems to be on the fringe of the "Freedom not fear" initiative, and it is a classical left-wing idiom. PROSA is neutral with regards to party politics. Therefore we are wary of using such terms.
−
−	:: Well, it's modular. Just don't use this. But anyway, the church organizations and official development aid organizations in europe use this term. Also, Spiegel, a major german weekly: http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,564674,00.html And there are a lot of well-known and respected scientists agreeing with this term: http://www.fecl.org/about_cl.htm --[[Benutzer:Ricardo.cristof\|Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes]] 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
−
−	:: Was Cristof schreibt ist ok, andererseits: "Festung" gibt die Vorstellung ein Inneres schotte sich gegen ein Äusseres ab. Das ist doch eigentlich gar nicht unser Problem. (oder hab ich da grad einen Denkfehler) Will sagen: ich hänge nicht an dem Begriff Festung Europa. --[[Benutzer:Oliver\|Oliver]] 8:17, 15. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
−
−	::: Zum Thema "Festung Europa" und der Bezug zu Datenschutz einige Links: [http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europ%C3%A4ische_Agentur_f%C3%BCr_die_operative_Zusammenarbeit_an_den_Au%C3%9Fengrenzen], [http://www.imi-online.de/2008.php3?id=1680], [http://www.datenschutz.de/suchen/datenschutzzentrum/?sh_query=y&num_of_results=11&search=eurodac&r8=y&imageField.x=0&imageField.y=0]. Aber wie gesagt, dieser Begriff wird zwar auch, aber nicht ausschließlich von Linken benutzt, ganz sicher aber von Kirchen- und Entwicklungshilfeorganisationen. Fortress Europe _ist_ unser Problem, denn Vorratsdatenspeicherung, Biometriedatenbanken (EuroDac, SIS II, VIS, s.a. Vertrag von Prüm) etc. sind in eine Strategie eingebettet. Und das ist die "Festung Europa". Und damit ist das unser Problem: es geht um Massen-Datenspeicherung, um anlaßlose Überwachung. --[[Benutzer:Ricardo.cristof\|Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes]] 10:40, 15. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
−	::://English translation (sorry, late): Regarding the topic "Fortress Europe" and the relation to privacy and data protection some links: [sorry, german - maybe someone can find english links?]. But as mentioned, this term is also, but not exclusively used by left-wingers; indeed Churches and development aid organizations use it, too. "Fortress Europe" _is_ our problem/issue, because data retention, biometric databases (EuroDAC, SIS II, VIS, see also Prum Treaty) etc. are parts of a stretegy. And that is "Fortress Europe". And thus, this is our issue: it is about mass- data storage, groundless surveillance. --[[Benutzer:Ricardo.cristof\|Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes]] 13:30, 15. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
−
−	~~== Other comments ==~~
−
−	~~In addition, we have other minor comments to the text.~~
−
−	~~=== Section on data interchange in international flights ===~~
−
−	We see the problem, and are concerned about the privacy issues. But this item is a symptom of a deeper problem, not the essence of the problem itself. Compared to the scope and principles at stake, this topic seems very detailed.
−
−	~~We suggest cutting some of these paragraphs to get a more concise political statement.~~
−
−	:: Well, this is not a press-realease, but a call for action. I suggest, writing shorter press-realeases about this call - including your national (and diverging) version of the call, of course. --[[Benutzer:Ricardo.cristof\|Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes]] 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
−
−	~~=== Internet censorship ===~~
−
−	~~We suggest replacing the line:~~
−	* abolish plans for live-surveillance and filtering of internet communication
−
−	~~With:~~
−	* No internet censorship
−
−	~~::someone already did ;-) --[[Benutzer:Ricardo.cristof\|Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes]] 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)~~
−
−	~~=== Air travellers and exchange of information ===~~
−
−	~~Consider merging the demands on less restriction in air travel to one bullet point.~~
−
−	* no information exchange with the US and other states lacking effective data protection
−
−	~~This item should be cut, or at least the concrete reference to the US can be removed.~~
−
−	::yes, this is a german topic: the german gouvernment has signed an agreement shipping information about suspected criminals to the US, including sexual behaviour, trader unions' membership, religion etc. Really embarrassing. --[[Benutzer:Ricardo.cristof\|Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes]] 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
−
−	~~=== Our demands (alternate version) ===~~
−
−	~~If we had to write the demands from scratch, we would write something along these lines:~~
−
−	~~''' 1. Protect our privacy '''~~
−	* Stop blanket logging of our telecommunication
−	* Abolish camera surveillance
−	* No online-searches of private computer systems (government sponsored hacking)
−	* Review existing surveillance powers as to their effectiveness and harmful side-effects
−
−	~~''' 2. No internet censorship '''~~
−	* Freedom of speech means we are responsible for what we say, censorship means we are restricted from saying certain things
−	* Democracy requires informed and independent citizens, therefore it depends on the citizens right to seek information where they choose
−
−	~~''' 3. No more infringements on our civil liberties '''~~
−	* Prevent leaks of confidential information of a personal nature
−	* No rutine exchange of personal information to airport personal/travel agencies
−	* Communication between citizens and states should be based on mutual trust not suspicion
−
−	~~--[[Benutzer:CamillaG\|CamillaG]] 17:49, 13. Jul. 2008 (CEST)~~
−
−	~~:: I like this rewritten demands! --[[Benutzer:Ricardo.cristof\|Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes]] 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)~~
−	~~:: Pro [[Benutzer:Oliver\|Oliver]] 8:28, 15. Jul. 2008 (CEST)~~

← Nächstältere Version		Version vom 27. Dezember 2009, 08:48 Uhr
Zeile 1:		Zeile 1:
−	~~comment6~~,	+	= PROSA's comments =
		+
		+	Dear Friends,
		+
		+	First of all thanks for the great initiative. We are really looking forward to participate and create a great party in Copenhagen. Here are our suggestions to the main text. We hope you will take them into account.
		+
		+	== Political issues ==
		+
		+	We have issues with two items in particular. These are important points to us.
		+
		+	=== Focus on street activities ===
		+
		+	Our activity does not really fit into this category. While we recognize and respect the large crowds this day of action has drawn in Berlin and other large cities, taking to the streets in large numbers may not be realistic in all countries.
		+
		+	We propose changing the heading, and the first and last paragraphs, so the day of action fits with a broader range of creative and peaceful means of protest.
		+
		+	==== Heading ====
		+
		+	The heading reads:
		+
		+	:Protest marches "Freedom not fear - Stop the surveillance mania!" all over Europe on 11 October 2008
		+
		+	We suggest replacing this with:
		+
		+	:Day of action "Freedom not fear - Stop the surveillance mania!" all over Europe on 11 October 2008:
		+
		+	:: Looks good, I suppose. --[[Benutzer:Ricardo.cristof\|Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes]] 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
		+	:: Pro - Ich find den Vorschlag sehr gut --[[Benutzer:Oliver\|Oliver]] 8:09, 15. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
		+
		+	==== First paragraph ====
		+
		+	The first paragraph is currently:
		+
		+	:A broad movement of human rights campaigners and other organizations are calling on everybody to join in street protests against excessive surveillance by businesses and governments. On 11 October 2008, concerned humans all over Europe will take to the streets, the motto being "Freedom not fear 2008". Peaceful and creative street action will take place in many European capital cities.
		+
		+	We suggest it be changed to:
		+
		+	:A broad movement of campaigners and organizations are calling on everybody to join in peaceful and creative street action against excessive surveillance by businesses and governments. On 11 October 2008, concerned citizens will protest against this trend, the motto being "Freedom not fear 2008". This will take place across the continent on many European capital cities.
		+
		+	:: Looks good, I suppose. --[[Benutzer:Ricardo.cristof\|Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes]] 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
		+	:: Pro Ich find´s gut --[[Benutzer:Oliver\|Oliver]] 8:12, 15. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
		+
		+	==== Last paragraph ====
		+
		+	The last paragraph is currently:
		+
		+	:In order to protest against security mania and excessive surveillance we will take to the streets in capital cities all over Europe on 11 October 2008. We call on everybody to join our peaceful protest. Politicians are to see that we are willing to take to the streets for the protection of our liberties. You can find the latest information on the protest marches and the list of participating cities at our website: http://wiki.vorratsdatenspeicherung.de/Freedom_Not_Fear_2008.
		+
		+	We suggest replacing the paragraph with the following:
		+
		+	:In order to protest against security mania and excessive surveillance we are calling on everybody to join the variety of peaceful protest. We will show that we are willing to take action for the protection of our liberties. You can find the latest information on the protest marches and activities and the list of participating cities at our website: http://wiki.vorratsdatenspeicherung.de/Freedom_Not_Fear_2008.
		+
		+	:: Looks good, I suppose. --[[Benutzer:Ricardo.cristof\|Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes]] 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
		+	:: Ich finds ok, kann damit leben. Frage ist, inwieweit wir hier die Politiker nicht mehr aufführen - aber ich kann damit leben. --[[Benutzer:Oliver\|Oliver]] 8:15, 15. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
		+
		+	=== "Fortress Europe" ===
		+
		+	We are a little concerned with the use of this term. It seems to be on the fringe of the "Freedom not fear" initiative, and it is a classical left-wing idiom. PROSA is neutral with regards to party politics. Therefore we are wary of using such terms.
		+
		+	:: Well, it's modular. Just don't use this. But anyway, the church organizations and official development aid organizations in europe use this term. Also, Spiegel, a major german weekly: http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,564674,00.html And there are a lot of well-known and respected scientists agreeing with this term: http://www.fecl.org/about_cl.htm --[[Benutzer:Ricardo.cristof\|Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes]] 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
		+
		+	:: Was Cristof schreibt ist ok, andererseits: "Festung" gibt die Vorstellung ein Inneres schotte sich gegen ein Äusseres ab. Das ist doch eigentlich gar nicht unser Problem. (oder hab ich da grad einen Denkfehler) Will sagen: ich hänge nicht an dem Begriff Festung Europa. --[[Benutzer:Oliver\|Oliver]] 8:17, 15. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
		+
		+	::: Zum Thema "Festung Europa" und der Bezug zu Datenschutz einige Links: [http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europ%C3%A4ische_Agentur_f%C3%BCr_die_operative_Zusammenarbeit_an_den_Au%C3%9Fengrenzen], [http://www.imi-online.de/2008.php3?id=1680], [http://www.datenschutz.de/suchen/datenschutzzentrum/?sh_query=y&num_of_results=11&search=eurodac&r8=y&imageField.x=0&imageField.y=0]. Aber wie gesagt, dieser Begriff wird zwar auch, aber nicht ausschließlich von Linken benutzt, ganz sicher aber von Kirchen- und Entwicklungshilfeorganisationen. Fortress Europe _ist_ unser Problem, denn Vorratsdatenspeicherung, Biometriedatenbanken (EuroDac, SIS II, VIS, s.a. Vertrag von Prüm) etc. sind in eine Strategie eingebettet. Und das ist die "Festung Europa". Und damit ist das unser Problem: es geht um Massen-Datenspeicherung, um anlaßlose Überwachung. --[[Benutzer:Ricardo.cristof\|Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes]] 10:40, 15. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
		+	::://English translation (sorry, late): Regarding the topic "Fortress Europe" and the relation to privacy and data protection some links: [sorry, german - maybe someone can find english links?]. But as mentioned, this term is also, but not exclusively used by left-wingers; indeed Churches and development aid organizations use it, too. "Fortress Europe" _is_ our problem/issue, because data retention, biometric databases (EuroDAC, SIS II, VIS, see also Prum Treaty) etc. are parts of a stretegy. And that is "Fortress Europe". And thus, this is our issue: it is about mass- data storage, groundless surveillance. --[[Benutzer:Ricardo.cristof\|Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes]] 13:30, 15. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
		+
		+	== Other comments ==
		+
		+	In addition, we have other minor comments to the text.
		+
		+	=== Section on data interchange in international flights ===
		+
		+	We see the problem, and are concerned about the privacy issues. But this item is a symptom of a deeper problem, not the essence of the problem itself. Compared to the scope and principles at stake, this topic seems very detailed.
		+
		+	We suggest cutting some of these paragraphs to get a more concise political statement.
		+
		+	:: Well, this is not a press-realease, but a call for action. I suggest, writing shorter press-realeases about this call - including your national (and diverging) version of the call, of course. --[[Benutzer:Ricardo.cristof\|Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes]] 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
		+
		+	=== Internet censorship ===
		+
		+	We suggest replacing the line:
		+	* abolish plans for live-surveillance and filtering of internet communication
		+
		+	With:
		+	* No internet censorship
		+
		+	::someone already did ;-) --[[Benutzer:Ricardo.cristof\|Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes]] 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
		+
		+	=== Air travellers and exchange of information ===
		+
		+	Consider merging the demands on less restriction in air travel to one bullet point.
		+
		+	* no information exchange with the US and other states lacking effective data protection
		+
		+	This item should be cut, or at least the concrete reference to the US can be removed.
		+
		+	::yes, this is a german topic: the german gouvernment has signed an agreement shipping information about suspected criminals to the US, including sexual behaviour, trader unions' membership, religion etc. Really embarrassing. --[[Benutzer:Ricardo.cristof\|Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes]] 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
		+
		+	=== Our demands (alternate version) ===
		+
		+	If we had to write the demands from scratch, we would write something along these lines:
		+
		+	''' 1. Protect our privacy '''
		+	* Stop blanket logging of our telecommunication
		+	* Abolish camera surveillance
		+	* No online-searches of private computer systems (government sponsored hacking)
		+	* Review existing surveillance powers as to their effectiveness and harmful side-effects
		+
		+	''' 2. No internet censorship '''
		+	* Freedom of speech means we are responsible for what we say, censorship means we are restricted from saying certain things
		+	* Democracy requires informed and independent citizens, therefore it depends on the citizens right to seek information where they choose
		+
		+	''' 3. No more infringements on our civil liberties '''
		+	* Prevent leaks of confidential information of a personal nature
		+	* No rutine exchange of personal information to airport personal/travel agencies
		+	* Communication between citizens and states should be based on mutual trust not suspicion
		+
		+	--[[Benutzer:CamillaG\|CamillaG]] 17:49, 13. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
		+
		+	:: I like this rewritten demands! --[[Benutzer:Ricardo.cristof\|Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes]] 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)
		+	:: Pro [[Benutzer:Oliver\|Oliver]] 8:28, 15. Jul. 2008 (CEST)