Diskussion:Freedom Not Fear 2008/Call for action

PROSA's comments

Dear Friends,

First of all thanks for the great initiative. We are really looking forward to participate and create a great party in Copenhagen. Here are our suggestions to the main text. We hope you will take them into account.

Political issues

We have issues with two items in particular. These are important points to us.

Focus on street activities

Our activity does not really fit into this category. While we recognize and respect the large crowds this day of action has drawn in Berlin and other large cities, taking to the streets in large numbers may not be realistic in all countries.

We propose changing the heading, and the first and last paragraphs, so the day of action fits with a broader range of creative and peaceful means of protest.

Heading

The heading reads:

Protest marches "Freedom not fear - Stop the surveillance mania!" all over Europe on 11 October 2008

We suggest replacing this with:

Day of action "Freedom not fear - Stop the surveillance mania!" all over Europe on 11 October 2008:

Looks good, I suppose. --Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)

Pro - Ich find den Vorschlag sehr gut --Oliver 8:09, 15. Jul. 2008 (CEST)

First paragraph

The first paragraph is currently:

A broad movement of human rights campaigners and other organizations are calling on everybody to join in street protests against excessive surveillance by businesses and governments. On 11 October 2008, concerned humans all over Europe will take to the streets, the motto being "Freedom not fear 2008". Peaceful and creative street action will take place in many European capital cities.

We suggest it be changed to:

A broad movement of campaigners and organizations are calling on everybody to join in peaceful and creative street action against excessive surveillance by businesses and governments. On 11 October 2008, concerned citizens will protest against this trend, the motto being "Freedom not fear 2008". This will take place across the continent on many European capital cities.

Looks good, I suppose. --Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)

Pro Ich find´s gut --Oliver 8:12, 15. Jul. 2008 (CEST)

Last paragraph

The last paragraph is currently:

In order to protest against security mania and excessive surveillance we will take to the streets in capital cities all over Europe on 11 October 2008. We call on everybody to join our peaceful protest. Politicians are to see that we are willing to take to the streets for the protection of our liberties. You can find the latest information on the protest marches and the list of participating cities at our website: http://wiki.vorratsdatenspeicherung.de/Freedom_Not_Fear_2008.

We suggest replacing the paragraph with the following:

In order to protest against security mania and excessive surveillance we are calling on everybody to join the variety of peaceful protest. We will show that we are willing to take action for the protection of our liberties. You can find the latest information on the protest marches and activities and the list of participating cities at our website: http://wiki.vorratsdatenspeicherung.de/Freedom_Not_Fear_2008.

Looks good, I suppose. --Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)

Ich finds ok, kann damit leben. Frage ist, inwieweit wir hier die Politiker nicht mehr aufführen - aber ich kann damit leben. --Oliver 8:15, 15. Jul. 2008 (CEST)

"Fortress Europe"

We are a little concerned with the use of this term. It seems to be on the fringe of the "Freedom not fear" initiative, and it is a classical left-wing idiom. PROSA is neutral with regards to party politics. Therefore we are wary of using such terms.

Well, it's modular. Just don't use this. But anyway, the church organizations and official development aid organizations in europe use this term. Also, Spiegel, a major german weekly: http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,564674,00.html And there are a lot of well-known and respected scientists agreeing with this term: http://www.fecl.org/about_cl.htm --Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)

Was Cristof schreibt ist ok, andererseits: "Festung" gibt die Vorstellung ein Inneres schotte sich gegen ein Äusseres ab. Das ist doch eigentlich gar nicht unser Problem. (oder hab ich da grad einen Denkfehler) Will sagen: ich hänge nicht an dem Begriff Festung Europa. --Oliver 8:17, 15. Jul. 2008 (CEST)

Zum Thema "Festung Europa" und der Bezug zu Datenschutz einige Links: [1], [2], [3]. Aber wie gesagt, dieser Begriff wird zwar auch, aber nicht ausschließlich von Linken benutzt, ganz sicher aber von Kirchen- und Entwicklungshilfeorganisationen. Fortress Europe _ist_ unser Problem, denn Vorratsdatenspeicherung, Biometriedatenbanken (EuroDac, SIS II, VIS, s.a. Vertrag von Prüm) etc. sind in eine Strategie eingebettet. Und das ist die "Festung Europa". Und damit ist das unser Problem: es geht um Massen-Datenspeicherung, um anlaßlose Überwachung. --Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes 10:40, 15. Jul. 2008 (CEST)

//English translation (sorry, late): Regarding the topic "Fortress Europe" and the relation to privacy and data protection some links: [sorry, german - maybe someone can find english links?]. But as mentioned, this term is also, but not exclusively used by left-wingers; indeed Churches and development aid organizations use it, too. "Fortress Europe" _is_ our problem/issue, because data retention, biometric databases (EuroDAC, SIS II, VIS, see also Prum Treaty) etc. are parts of a stretegy. And that is "Fortress Europe". And thus, this is our issue: it is about mass- data storage, groundless surveillance. --Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes 13:30, 15. Jul. 2008 (CEST)

Other comments

In addition, we have other minor comments to the text.

Section on data interchange in international flights

We see the problem, and are concerned about the privacy issues. But this item is a symptom of a deeper problem, not the essence of the problem itself. Compared to the scope and principles at stake, this topic seems very detailed.

We suggest cutting some of these paragraphs to get a more concise political statement.

Well, this is not a press-realease, but a call for action. I suggest, writing shorter press-realeases about this call - including your national (and diverging) version of the call, of course. --Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)

Internet censorship

We suggest replacing the line:

• abolish plans for live-surveillance and filtering of internet communication

With:

• No internet censorship

someone already did ;-) --Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)

Air travellers and exchange of information

Consider merging the demands on less restriction in air travel to one bullet point.

• no information exchange with the US and other states lacking effective data protection

This item should be cut, or at least the concrete reference to the US can be removed.

yes, this is a german topic: the german gouvernment has signed an agreement shipping information about suspected criminals to the US, including sexual behaviour, trader unions' membership, religion etc. Really embarrassing. --Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)

Our demands (alternate version)

If we had to write the demands from scratch, we would write something along these lines:

1. Protect our privacy

• Stop blanket logging of our telecommunication
• Abolish camera surveillance
• No online-searches of private computer systems (government sponsored hacking)
• Review existing surveillance powers as to their effectiveness and harmful side-effects

2. No internet censorship

• Freedom of speech means we are responsible for what we say, censorship means we are restricted from saying certain things
• Democracy requires informed and independent citizens, therefore it depends on the citizens right to seek information where they choose

3. No more infringements on our civil liberties

• Prevent leaks of confidential information of a personal nature
• No rutine exchange of personal information to airport personal/travel agencies
• Communication between citizens and states should be based on mutual trust not suspicion

--CamillaG 17:49, 13. Jul. 2008 (CEST)

I like this rewritten demands! --Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes 15:50, 14. Jul. 2008 (CEST)

Pro Oliver 8:28, 15. Jul. 2008 (CEST)